Foreign Relations, 1969-1976, Volume E-7, South Asia, 1969-1972
Released by the Office of the Historian

 

MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATIONS
 

SUBJECT: New Delhi Advisers Meeting

 

Participants: 

 

Americans

Kenneth B. Keating, U.S. Ambassador
Henry A. Kissinger, Assistant to the President
Joseph J. Sisco, Assistant Secretary of State
Maurice Williams, Assistant Administrator, A.I.D.
Ronald Ziegler, Special Assistant to the President
Harold H. Saunders, NSC Staff
Helmut Sonnenfeldt, NSC Staff
William Weathersby, Deputy Chief of Mission
Herbert Spivak, Political Counsellor, U.S. Embassy, New Delhi
Christopher Van Hollen, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State

 

Indians

T. N. Kaul - Foreign Secretary
Kewal Singh - Secretary (I), Ministry of External Affairs
V. H. Coelho - Secretary (II), Ministry of External Affairs
P. N. Haksar - Secretary to the Prime Minister
K. B. Lall - Secretary, Ministry of Foreign Trade and Supply
I. G. Patel - Special Secretary, Department of Economic Affairs, Ministry of Finance
H. C. Sarin - Secretary, Ministry of Defence

 

The President and Prime Minister Gandhi joined with Foreign Minister Dinesh Singh about 9:45 a. m. on August 1

Date and Place: July 31 and August 1 in the Panel Room of the Rashtrapati Bavan (President's Palace) in New Delhi, India, during President Nixon's visit.

Thursday, July 31 - 3:00-4:45y. m.

Kaul: Welcome and introductions.

Keating:  Thanks and introductions.

President's trip to show U.S. interest in this part of the world and importance of changes taking place here.

Suggested agenda:

1. Future of Asia
2. Indo-Pakistan relations
3. Middle East

Kaul: Invited Kissinger to lead off, perhaps telling some impressions of trip so far.

Kissinger: We have not come to press our views but to hear yours. It is clear that postwar e~ is at an end when U.S. disproportionately strong and disproportionately responsible. The post-Vietnam period may be the point of change. Three wars in this generation have started in Asia, so peace in Asia and peace in the world are inseparable. But we cannot be in a position for developing all schemes for peace 'and progress. Nor is the defense of Asian countries more important to us than to them. We do not want to impose any patterns. We want to hear how you view the near term future. In the near term, economic and political development are important.

We are not on this trip to ask support for any policies. But each nation has an interest in how war turns out. Each nation will make a judgment on the intrinsic merits of Vietnam, but we can make the judgment of the impact of the war's outcome on our future role in Asia.

Our message has been that we consider our role to be resistance
of aggression across boundaries. Subversion is an internal matter. But the real challenge of subversion is to prevent it, and that is a matter of 'economic development on which we will help.

Kaul: We hope your visit will lead to greater understanding and cooperation between us.

It is our assessment that Asian countries should be left to solve their own problems in their own way.

We too are concerned about Vietnam. We have great hopes in peace talks, disappointment in lack of progress. India will make known its assessments through diplomatic channels.

Asian nations are suffering great internal problems. Answer to that is not military alliance but a shift from the military to the social side. We have watched with great interest the growth of
sub regional organizations, especially under ECAFE. We would appreciate US support for ECAFE Council of Ministers formed December 1968.

We would be interested in your assessment of (1) China,
(2) the Sino-Soviet rift, (3) relations of great powers where they meet in Asia, (4) US views of great power guarantee (political rather than military) of the integrity of the smaller countries of the area.

With regard to Indo-Pakistan relations, I must express our concern over resumption of US military aid to Pakistan. India has put a number of propositions to Pakistan including no-war pact -- with little serious response.

Kissinger:  We have some views on China but, "on the basis of propinquity," perhaps you might give your views first.

Kaul: Ninth Congress in China continued talking about national liberation movements. We see small straws in wind that they may be returning gradually to normal diplomatic relations to a number of countries. On the other hand, they continue to support Pakistan and dissident elements in India. Large numbers of troops concentrated on India's borders. We do not see any probability of change in foreseeable future. They seem to lump together imperialists, revisionists and reactionaries. India may have gone from enemy #2 to enemy #3. Concern about two Chinese roads through Pakistani-occupied Kashmir. Threat to India more, not less. Though threat to smaller nations now subversion. India's democratic experiment an obstacle to China's path to supremacy.

Kissinger: Many of your points with which we would agree. In Communist China traditional Chinese isolationism and ideology make it difficult for China to relate to other countries. You are best judge of China's military threat to India but would agree that main threat to smaller countries is subversion.

Sino-Soviet dispute: Two centers of orthodoxy - battles among heretics more bitter than conflicts of national interests. A border with 700 million on one side and 300 million on the other,

On US relationship to dispute, we will consult our own interests in relation to each. President has said we will negotiate with USSR but not for negotiations' sake. We will not tie ourselves to support one Communist country against another. We have recently made some minor symbolic moves toward China. In short, our relations will depend on their policies.

President has said that a major military move by any other major power would be looked on with disfavor by us.

Keating: Add a word about our small step toward Communist China.

Kissinger:   We would permit tourists to purchase Chicom goods -- a small breach in our total embargo. Released travel restrictions for some US groups. Has been no response on travel restrictions but too early. But we do not expect spectacular results.

Kaul: What about China's relations to Pakistan?

Kissinger: To say that we are open to contacts is not to say that we look with equanimity on anything it does.
Sisco: Some systematic efforts are being made to develop closer Chicom-Pakistan relations. We can't say much more than that.

We have impression that Chicom leadership is trying to reimpose control after the Cultural Revolution. We assume army is strong center. What are Indian views?

Kaul: From composition of new politbureau, we judge army in control. Creates apprehension that Chinese militarism will reassert itself. Japanese and Soviet assessment is that India will be main target.

Sonnenfeldt: We are interested Indian assessment of Sino-Soviet border tension. Hard to tell whether either side wants to settle border problems. We see no interest in Sino-Soviet hostilities because tension affects poise with which they deal with other problems.

Kaul: In what direction is Chicom nuclear capability going? ABM's?

Kissinger: A small force. One reason why we are developing ABM's. We see our ability to stay well ahead of Chinese"

Kaul: What would be effect of China's nuclear power on non-nuclear countries?

Kissinger: Main threat is from conventional forces. For China to use nuclear
weapons would involve major problem for other nuclear powers.
They have interest in not letting nuclear blackmail become
pattern of international behavior.

No question that nuclear attack would present serious problems. We can't specify our response in advance. A major country being attacked by Communist China would raise problems for stability of Asia.

Sisco: Distinguish conventional from nuclear attacks.

Kissinger: President has said that a significant military attack on major country would be regarded seriously.

Sisco: We not prepared disregard UN charter, despite American popular phrase "no more Vietnams."

Kissinger: President has made distinction between conventional cross-border attack and subversion.

Sisco: What is your attitude toward Brezhnev proposal?

Kaul: We were surprised. All we cal tell is that Soviet idea is not military alliance but general cooperation. India not for military alliance.

Kissinger: If a non-aggression treaty, hard to know what practical meaning would be.

Kaul: They want dissolution of pacts and substitute something else.

Sisco: This came up peripherally in Moscow. I have impression Russians busy staffing.

Kaul: Let's talk about Pakistan.

Kewal Singh: We have hardly any contacts trade, exchanges. although India has lifted ban on trade. Pakistan does not respond; now selling Indian property.

Every time Pak reply: no normalization unless basic issues are resolved.

Gandhi's renewed no-war proposal met no response.

Keating:  Rann of Kutch a model?

K. Singh:  That was special. Other issues not subject to arbitration.

Two basic issues: (1) Kashmir and (2) Farakka - Eastern waters. We not prepared negotiate Kashmir.

Kaul: Distinction between Kutch and Kashmir. Latter is not just territory but self-determination.

Keating:  I only meant Kutch settlement bore out K. Singh's thesis - small agreements first.

K. Singh:  Farakka: India agrees to cooperative approach. Pak demands too high.

Kaul: East Pakistani problem is inundation, not irrigation. Political problem.

Kissinger:  If they don't take your offer, they get nothing?

K. Singh:  They get regeneration of the waters below the barrage.

Sisco: Genuine compromises possible. Genuine concern on both sides what future needs might be.

We value good India-Pak relations.

We past habit; of trying to come up with new Kashmir solution every year.

We think India has acted well during Pakistan's recent troubles.

On arms: We want to avoid an arms race and avoid diversion of resources to military uses. Recognize legitimate defense needs. Welcome India's desire to become self-sufficient. Arms policy under review.

Sarin: On defense production, ordnance factory from St. Louis only working 20% of capacity. Supplies have stopped coming. [Long complaint about US performance.]

On Pakistan, forces have increased from 6-11 divisions, 11 medium and 3 light regiments to 19 and 3, etc.

In sum, Pakistan has roughly doubled military strength since 1965.

Kaul: Each side has military needs, but India facing China. What is the threat to Pakistan!! We hope US will exercise influence on Pak thinking. Only helping China.

Kissinger: We have no interest in an India-Pak conflict. Confronts us with choices we prefer not to have to make. We hope you succeed in normalizing relations. Don't want to aggravate.

Kaul: If you don't want to choose, don't aggravate. Don't repeat mistake of 1954.

Soviet supply to Pakistan has hurt USSR here.

Patel: Pakistan gets more economic aid than Pakistan [sic. India] relatively - advantage to defense. 

Kissinger:  No decisions on this trip on military supply policy. Hear views. One criterion - that stability and progress of South Asia depends on stability and progress of