JBButton: mv

SECRET SecDel/Mc 54

September 30, 1969

 

SECRETARY'S DELEGATION
TO THE
TWENTY-FOURTH SESSION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY
NEW YORK, SEPTEMBER, 1969
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION

 

DATE : September 30, 1969

TIME : 11 :30

PLACE: USUN

 

SUBJECT: Secretary's Bilateral Conversation with Pakistan Minister of Information and National Affairs

 

PARTICIPANTS:

U.S. : The Secretary                        Pakistan:

Mr. Button, SccDel                             Min. of Info and Natl.

                                                           Aff. Sher Ali Khan

                                                           Amb. Hilaly

                                                           Jamiluddin Hasan (UN)

 

Distribution:      S          D              WH        EA              Amembassy New Delhi

U         S/S            CIA       NEA           Amembassy Rawalpindi

J           INR/OD    DOD     J/PM

C         S/PC           VP       AID

 

Note: The following memorandum of conversation covers several subjects­Pakistan's relations with Vietnam and China, need for U.S. aid, Communist influence in Pakistan-but Minister Sher All so persistently brought every subject back to a discussion of Pakistan's relations with India that the memorandum could not feasibly be separated into different parts without losing its essential flavor.

 

The Secretary described how much he had enjoyed his visit in Pakistan and that President Nixon had told him how much he had enjoyed his stay and how impressed he had been with President Yahya. Sher Ali told how impressed he had been at the President's reception with President Nixon's ability to have some pertinent remarks about Pakistan and that he had reported the President's statement that he had full confidence that US-Pakistan relations will continue to improve.

 

In response to the Secretary's question about reports Pakistan had had from the Ho Chi Minh funeral, Sher All reported that he had seen no report from their Ambassador in Peking who had represented them. The Secretary said that he had gathered from the Indians that Pakistan might be contemplating a change in the level of their representation in North Vietnam. Sher Ali replied, rather testily, that Pakistan's position was unchanged and that they had no intention now of raising the status of their office in Hanoi. He said this is an example of how the Indians are inclined to twist things Pakistan does. For example, at the Rabat conference it had been agreed that representatives of the Indian Moslems might attend but then India sent an official delegation. The Indian Minister on arrival gave a statement to the effect that he represented India as a whole. The Minister was one of the Moslems brought into the Indian Government. It was impossible for Pakistan to permit this twisting of the conference invitation at a time when 500 Moslems had been killed in communal rioting in India.

 

Sher Ali said that Pakistan's relationship with the US was deep and genuine. He recalled Pakistan's birth as an Islamic state, dedicated to the preservation and furtherance of Islamic ideals. US aid had been greatly appreciated, in fact, it is vitally necessary to make Pakistan into the kind of progressive Islamic state that its founders envisaged. Pakistan recognized it cannot live without neighbors but unfortunately a fire in India inevitably drops cinders on Pakistan. There are nearly 200 million Indians under communist governments in Kerala and West Bengal and Pakistan inevitably feels pressure from them. He is sure that the trouble in East Pakistan which resulted in the fall of the Ayub Government was inspired by Indian communists. Another example of the close connections is demonstrated by the recent statements of Amb. Keating. Sher Ali wondered if he had thought about what he was preaching, what way of life he was encouraging. Mrs. Gandhi is trying to survive politically by moving to the left. She obviously appreciates encouragement from the US Embassy but it accelerates the pace toward the left and encourages similar tendencies in Pakistan.

 

Sher All said that as Minister of Information he recognized the shortcomings of newspaper reports and that perhaps Ambassador Keating has been misquoted. He said he was currently having trouble with Ted Morello of the Pakistan Times. He understood that the U.S. Embassy had been inquiring whether some of Morello's recent stories had been inspired from home, for example, his criticism of the Pakistan UN representative for his handling of the AI-Aqsa fire resolution and his quoting a Pakistani representative to the effect he has been "indignant at President Nixon's UN speech." He considered Morello quite unreliable and certainly not under GOP discipline.

 

Picking up his former theme, he noted that President Yahya had inherited a considerable number of leftists from the former government. In order to counteract their influence and to build a Pakistan true to its founders, aid was vital.

 

In response to the Secretary's question about the extent of Communist influence in Pakistan, Sher Ali said it was quite strong because of poverty and the influences from India. He reported that the Indians and Pakistani leftists will make much of Ambassador Keating's support. Ambassador Hilaly said that the leftists in Pakistan will say that the Americans support nationalization and these sentiments will dry up US private investment.

 

The Secretary said it seemed to be almost impossible to say anything in Asia that did not make someone unhappy.

 

Sher All said that for 22 years Pakistan had been prevented from narrowing the gap between its "haves" and "have nots" because it has to concentrate on fighting for its survival against India.

 

The Secretary said he had been struck in the conversations he had been holding at how little he has learned about the internal situation in the countries of the Ministers he had talked to and how much they talked about other countries and their difficulties with them. All over the world, we hear repetitions of the elements of problems but rarely anything about solutions. As a lawyer, he had devoted his career to finding solutions to problems.

 

Sher Ali said that Pakistan is eager for solutions but that such essential elements as US aid had been vitiated by "negative happenings."

 

The Secretary said he thought that our aid to Pakistan had been a great help and was distressed to hear there was a problem. He said he hoped the government's future was bright and they would avoid involvement with the Chinese and Soviets so they would not lose their independence. We wanted to be able to play a useful role in helping Pakistan maintain its sovereignty and had always thought our past aid had been useful in this regard. The Secretary said he was impressed however at how difficult it was for US to play it role in South Asia without antagonizing either India or Pakistan.

 

Sher Ali said Pakistan's problems were particularly difficult because the world's three most populous countries were Pakistan's neighbors and that Pakistan was grateful for US help so that it will not fall into the position of being over-obligated to the Soviets.

 

The Secretary said that a reading of the US press indicates the extent to which the US public is luke-warm about the prospects of helping other nations. From our standpoint, people wonder what our help is accomplishing, whether it is really helping countries to develop in peaceful ways. It sometimes seems the world is bent on self­destruction. In his conversation with nearly 80 Foreign Ministers he finds most of them unwilling to look to the future, that they tend to talk of the reasons for existing problems instead of thinking about solutions to problems. The American people have hoped that our involvement abroad will lead to peace, but there is now a general mood of dicouragement. He said that in many ways things don't seem to have improved from 1958 when he was in the Eisenhower Administration. Many Americans now seem inclined to let foreigners "stew in their own juice."

 

Sher Ali said he understood this sentiment. However he immediately went back to his complaints about India and how the Government of Pakistan could not stay in power if it permitted actions like the Indian initiative at Rabat.

 

Obviously seeing that his Minister was leading the conversation into unproductive lines again, Ambassador Hilaly said he had been following closely the declining US public enthusiasm for foreign aid and asked that Pakistan's needs be kept clearly in mind, and that Pakistan now needed some second hand rejected weapons. These were seriously needed from the United States so that the Pakistanis would not have to follow the path of India and accept low interest, long term loans for arms from the Soviets.

 

The Secretary recalled that he had spoken to President Yahya about our overtures to the Chinese Communists. He wondered if the Minister had any information as to why the Chinese do not respond. Sher Ali said that in his personal opinion, once China is made to feel they have responsibility within the family of nations, they will begin to act most responsibly. The Secretary said he could not understand why the Chinese expect consideration from the UN when they consistently insult it. Sher All said that he hoped the Chinese might soon respond to the recent United States moves.

 

The Secretary closed the conversation with a short review of the US efforts to find the solution to Middle East problems. He said his experience as a lawyer caused him to wish to spend more time on working out solutions to problems rather than arguing and re-arguing past history and issues that had been made into questions of principle by the parties in conflict.

 

 

Source: The American Papers- Secret and Confidential India.Pakistan.Bangladesh Documents 1965-1973, The University Press Limited, p.286-289